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Hi guys just looking for opinions.

I built my first classical (a keeper) with a bolt on neck. Every other aspect of the guitar was traditional Fleta. I'm just wondering if I built classicals using a bolt on and faux spanish foot What do you think would be my chances for selling them all other things being equal.

I could just cover the bolts in the head block with a sticker as does Taylor and La Patrie/Seagull then just not mention it. Or I guess I could use an entire page on my website and justify/sell the idea. It is something that could set me apart from the rest of the pack.

I recently showed my #2 to David Schramm and his comment was something like "they're not going to not buy it, if it plays good and sounds good , just because it has a bolt on neck".


Anyway, your thoughts?

ThanxRCoates38503.02875

Am I reading it right that David Schramm said that people wouldn't buy a bolt-on neck?

Eric,
He is saying that they will still buy it if it sounds good and plays good. Bolt-on doesn't matter. I'm not a classical player, so I don't know what classical players think of this. I really don't see why it should matter from a builders stand point. But I do remember a time before I was building that I had this idea that bolt-on necks were cheaper made. Now that I build, I don't see a convincing reason to use a dove tail neck. Tradition is the only reason I see. I bet classical guitarists would shy away from a bolt on neck for the same reason, they feel it is an inferior method to use a bolt on because it goes against tradition.

Now if you hand the guitar to a classical guitarist and they play it, and they love it, I'm sure they would not care less if it had a bolt-on neck. I know I wouldn't!

I say try to explain all the benefits of the bolt-on on your site. If you lie, and someone finds out, your name will be mud. Good luck!
Tracy

don't build anything fake, and that is what "faux" is.

the early prejudice in the acoustic guitar world against bolt on necks was well justified as they were only used on some pretty bad guitars at their modern inception.(ignoring the 19th and early 20th century efforts)

it took bob taylor building excellent guitars and a lot of salesmanship to breakdown that prejudice. now everyman and his dog is selling boltons of one description or anoth.

and not all of the high level spanish builders use the traditional spanish foot approach. there is at least one building with a separate neck, though i don't think he uses a bolt on; memory seems to keep saying dovetail m&t..

build and sell honestly, no faux, and if they are good they will be bought.

Classical players can be strange. I've heard of a player who loved a guitar but didn't buy it because there was a single position dot on the side of the fretboard at the 12th fret. I guess he was afraid that the other classical players would think he was a sissy.

For some, the guitar must be a copy of a Torres or Hauser. While others will rave about some weird Kasha inspired creation.

I wonder if there is any sonic difference between a bolt-on and a dovetail. My gut tells me that there isn't but the hardware does add an ounce or so to the total weight of the instrument. So there might be something there to affect the sound.

If I could make two identical instrument, I would be tempted to do the experiment and build one with a bolt-on and the other with a dove-tail and find out if there is an audible difference.
Mike Mahar38503.3911689815

Ronn,

I built my 1st classical with a bolt on neck. It ended up in the scrap heap due to several other issues, but I liked the bolt on method, especially after trying a traditional Spanish foot. That one ended up on the scrap heap also, but I did get to try both methods.

If you look at someone like Jeremy Locke, he uses just a small tenon and mortise, and glues them together. Check here. I see no difference in that, or not gluing the tenon, and just bolting it on. Of course, selling it to classical players is another thing all together. But, if it plays nice, and sounds good, it will have a chance. My 3rd, and hopefully 1st successful attempt at a classical, will be a bolt on neck.

Jeff

If you guys are just wanting to do a bolt on neck because that is what you know and think it is easier I understand. But, why not do a traditional Spanish heel? Many people shy away from this cause they think it is harder. Well, it isn't. In my classical building DVD I show a simple way to do a traditonal Spanish heel on a table saw. IMHO when building a classical guitar it is easier to do with the neck on anyway.

If you are going to do a bolt on do it because you believe it is bettr not because it is easier. I have done dovetails on my SS guitars but now do bolt ons because I believe they are better and I sell it as abetter method. At the same time there are some people who may not buy because it has a bolt on while others might actually decide to buy partially because of the bolt on. But the one thing you don't want to do is try to hide it.

If you want to build bolt-on classical for sale advertise them as such. Due to low string tension ease of neck reset will not be an advantage as it is in steel string guitars However you may fine a market with mid-level guitar students. Someone that needs a well constructed and top quality tonal classical but not ready to buy a 5-10k classical. I would design to be as good of guitar as you can build while keeping in mind that the market will not be as willing to pay 5-10k. If you can make a profit at $1500-2k you may find a nitch market. As I did with my student model steel strings “Plain Jane” model with AAA wood, no frills from $800-$1200. But I got to tell you that loose money on them up front but I tend to make it up with repeat orders later. 12 of 24 commissions have been these models. five have lead in one way or another to either referral, or higher dollar orders down the road.MichaelP38503.4810648148

I've been playing classical for over 20 years and here are a few observations. The comments about the classical players being 'traditional' are pretty accurate. I've bought 2 very good classicals in my life ($3,000 +), and with both of them I wanted a very traditional sounding and looking instrument. In my mind I would have shyed away from a bolt-on on a classical if I knew it was--BUT, I'm sure I probably wouldn't have noticed any difference from a bolt-on either. YEAH, so we're nuts! But I would consider that many classical players (your potential customers) like the traditional spanish heel, even if there's no real reason or difference sound-wise. The stereotype is that all classical players want traditional--but there's truth to every stereotype. The responses on this thread alone show how many people believe that classical players want a traditional neck joint. If you have no other compelling reason, go for the option that gives you the largest customer base.

Also, I have to agree with Robbie above--traditional heel isn't hard. I've never built a steelstring yet because the neck joint looks so much harder. The traditional spanish heel is easy, especially following the DVD. Now that I also have Robbies SS DVD, I see that it's not as hard as I thought. Since you don't seem to have any compelling reasons why bolt-on is better, I would build traditional and then not worry about coming up with a page of marketing BS trying to say why it's better. Tell it like it is.

Cheers!

John   

Not this again! Dovetail/Spanish foot vs. bolt on. Man that has been worn out for a long time, but always seems to get brought up, usually by those that reject bolt on necks. I may be pretty new to building, but this argument is prevalent in guitar forums the world over.

"A good Spanish heel or dovetail implies traditional craftsmanship. Bolts imply manufacture."

Or

"I would build traditional and then not worry about coming up with a page of marketing BS trying to say why it's better. Tell it like it is."

Statements like these are just personal opinions. Show me why a bolt on neck is inferior to a dove tail or Spanish foot. Generalizations don't explain much.

Some would say power tools produce inferior instruments than hand tools. Tradition you know! So where does it all end? I feel like, do what you want, but let others do the same.

Tradition is a guide and not a jailer.
W. Somerset Maugham

Jeff

Well said.
I went to bolt on necks not for the ease of construction but instead for the ease of removal I have not had to reset but one neck of a guitar that I have built and it was a dovetail. I had no real problem but the time was typical for a dovetail. I have one guitar that I have played around with the neck thickness a couple of times. It is a bolt-on It is so much simpler to remove. But if you think about it a mortise and tendon joint is as traditional as a dovetail makers have been using a mortise and tendon joint with removable pins as long as they have use glued dovetail joints. A bolt-on is a mortise and tendon with the bolts pulling the tension on the joint instead of taper pins .

Jeff,

I think you misunderstood my point. I wasn't trying to say one is better than the other. All I was trying to point out is that the 'perception' many classical players have is that a spanish heel is better (whether true or not). Unless you can demonstrate why a bolt-on is better, why not appeal to the masses and build the traditional? That's all I was trying to say. Your potential customer base seems larger with a traditional, assuming all other things equal.

I still believe my comment about the marketing BS to be true. Unless there is a good reason to state one way is better, it's only an opinion--and the original post made it sound like they would use a webpage to try and convince or sell the idea that a bolt-on was superior for no other reason than to match his building ability.

Just my opinion!

John

I'm afraid John hit it right on the head, on most counts. I was looking for a reason to build with a bolt on neck. And by the way faux may have been the wrong word Michael. I believe some one else here does something similar on a steel string.

Part of the reason for asking is that my #2 is by far the best sounding classical I had my grimey little hands on. Prejudice? Probably.

I agree with John. Most classical players I've had contact with were seeking a "traditional" instrument. That is unless the name Smallman, Redgate, or Humphrey is on the lable. IN fact I myself am guilty. I remember the first "quality" classical I bought (2k) had a single green side marker dot at the seventh fret... I hated that dot.

So anyway I guess I knew the answer before I posted the question. Didn't mean to go after anyones sacred cow RCoates38503.9467476852

John,

Yes, I agree, classical players have a perception of the Spanish heel being "better." I am a classical player (not a very good one), and I have a traditional Spanish guitar. So I understand. Perception is not easy to change, but I do think things are changing ever so slowly.

My one attempt at building the Spanish heel did not work out too well. But, as I was looking at it, I thought, this is just a foot block inside the guitar, connected to a heel block outside the guitar, by a thin tenon. It seemed no different than a neck and body joined by a tenon and bolted on. That was my perception, and the route I will go. I may end up with a room full of guitars I can't give away, but, at least I will feel comfortable with their construction.

Jeff

I think there are both traditionalist and non-traditionalist classical guitar consumers. The non-traditionalists aren't going to care. They probably are a large enough portion of the guitar buying population that you will do ok.

On the other hand, I keep thinking about people's preferences regarding wood. I happen to really like curly maple acoustic guitars. People who buy guirars seem to like darker woods, particularly RW. On the other hand, selling an archtop that isn't made of maple might be a little tough.

On a classical, the bolt-on doesn't have the advantages it does on a SS. I was a traditionalist about dovetails until recently. One of the factors was looking at Danny Ferrington's guitars. I really liked them, but putting a huge neck block so you can put a fender style neck on an acoustic just doesn't seem right. I looked at Cumpiano's neck joint, sniffed a couple of times, and cut a dovetail. Never really thought of bolt-on necks as most people are doing them now. Next guitar will definitely be a bolt-on. There are clear advantages.

I do see the bolt on neck as having some advantages - mainly simplicity, convienence during construction and ease of future repairs. There are probably others. I have used this several times and liked the results. Especially useful starting out when it is more likely you'll have to pull the neck off and reset or refinish.

The dovetail has a certain elegance about it. It's not hard to fit once you spend a little time. A single clamp and it pulls in tight to the sides and top, and stays put. You're not fumbling in the soundhole everytime you want to put on/take off the neck.

I see the Spanish heel construction in a similar way, although I have never built one. It's a physical joint that works because you have carefully fit one part to another - and doesn't rely on hardware.

The downside to the bolt-on is customer perception - especially in the classical world. The only way around that is to build a superior instrument, and price it fairly. Pass the cost savings (in your time) on to them. Then a player really can't say no. They will come to accept it.

If you're working on your first few instruments, I'm not sure the neck joint matters - as long as it's structurally sound. If you're very lucky, they will get sold to a friend or family member. Possibly a student, not a concert guitarist. There are tons of more important things to worry about - tone, workmanship, finish, playability, etc.

While I personally have no problem with the bolt-on, I'm not sure I would use it. It's hard enough to sell a guitar and it then becomes harder and harder as the instruments become more expensive and more "traditional".   

Ironically enough, the guitars I am building now (1834 Martin/Staufer) had bolt-on, pivoting/adjustable necks - but I went with the dovetail. I had lots of details to worry about and wanted to focus on them. So, by going with the dovetail (like Fleta) I have NOT done the traditional thing. (For CF Martin, the adjustable/cantilevered neck was a 10% upcharge.) Will it bite me? Time will tell.

I only know how to build in one way and that is spanish. I build almost exclusively classicals so it makes sense. I started building before Sloane, Cumpiano and others wrote great books on construction and the only book I had was A.P. Sharpe's "Make your own Spanish Guitar" so that is what I build.

Even the few steel strings I built were with a spanish heel style of construction. I have looked at everyones really neat way of building steel strings and there are alot of great things to be said for building the box and then attaching the neck for a steel string but I dont see any real advantage for a classical guitar to be built any other way than on a solera.

Eugene Clark who builds great flamenco and classical guitars says that he has worked repairing and restoring most of the great classical builders guitars and the biggest advantage he has seen for the spanish heel is that there is virtually never a reason or need for a neck reset.

I understand why necks are a problem for a steel string but for a classical guitar it is so much easier to build from a common reference plane (the neck face and top resting against the solera) as it makes it much easier to get predictable results. Many great classical builders use the same plantilla (top outline/profile) their entire building career, always using a spanish heel.

For me most of the choices I make in terms of size and shape of guitar are partly market driven and part are trying to learn from the best practices of the past.

Classical players are a very traditional lot but it is also a fact that Torres and Hauser figured out optimal sizes and proportions that have stood the test of time. Ramirez and others have tried longer scale lengths, others like Smallman (et al) have tried alternative bracing and construction, and a few builders will even try to do something other than a spanish heel, but for a solid spanish style classical guitar it would be hard to improve on the simplicity and design of a spanish heel.

[QUOTE=Mike Mahar] Classical players can be strange. I've heard of a player who loved a guitar but didn't buy it because there was a single position dot on the side of the fretboard at the 12th fret. I guess he was afraid that the other classical players would think he was a sissy.

For some, the guitar must be a copy of a Torres or Hauser. While others will rave about some weird Kasha inspired creation.

I wonder if there is any sonic difference between a bolt-on and a dovetail. My gut tells me that there isn't but the hardware does add an ounce or so to the total weight of the instrument. So there might be something there to affect the sound.

If I could make two identical instrument, I would be tempted to do the experiment and build one with a bolt-on and the other with a dove-tail and find out if there is an audible difference.
[/QUOTE]

Hey! I resemble that remark!!

Seriously, your're not far off. First, if you have never played with side dots, they can be VERY distracting. My current guitar has one dot at the seventh fret and it throws my teacher every time he borrows my guitar. It also throws me when I played my other, unadorned, guitar.

I can't imagine a classical guitarist asking about or caring what they cannot see as far as bolt-on vs traditional unless it changes the weight distribution to the point where it doesn't "sit" properly when played.

I propose the classical guitar "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy!

Regards, Steve Brown

I agree with Robbie, if your going to do a classical then just do a standard spanish heel, their very easy to do and work very well for classicals.

Now I build a bolt on for my steel strings, and that's for a couple of reasons:

1. I wanted an easy way to do repairs if needed.
2. Steels need neck resets and a bolt on makes that easy.

But for classicals once setup they are pretty stable and I like the look of a good hauser type spanish heel in the guitar.

Also "in my opionion" a classical needs all the help it can get to transfer string vibration into the body and you can't beat a spanish heel or dovetail for that (although I see no reason to do a dovetail for a classical). I build my classicals to be as light as I can and don't want to put any extra hardware on them unless I really really need to.

Classical players are THE single most picky people I have ever dealt with, I have one that gave me measurements for parts of the guitar. But it's a great feeling if you can make them happy

Cheers

-Paul-

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-Paul-

Patriot Guitars

Hey Paul, I thought you dropped of the edge there for a while. Good to see ya back.

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Tickle your guitar daily, and it'll tickle you back.

It's good to be back, the last two months have been a time of total change for us. My company is being acquired so I've had to spend time working through that and making sure I was prepared for whatever happened.

We lost our lease on our home and had to find a new one, so you can imagine that building has all but stopped, I'm still trying to make it to healdsburg even with all this going on. Should be finished moving this week and start on redoing the shop this weekend and hopefully have enough setup to finish the last three in the queue...

-Paul-

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Patriot Guitars